The leaders’ debate

"Andreas Papandreou was not Tsipras" ND president Antonis Samaras says in an interview in "THEMA" and launches an attack against SYRIZA and its president. "SYRIZA behaves like a student party in an amphitheater and not as a responsible party in the midst of an overwhelming crisis." He states that after the elections he will work with all who want to help create a government that will keep the country in the euro and change the austerity recipe, and adds "even with SYRIZA in this context. It is up to them."
 
- Mr. President, are the shortages in medicines in the past week scenes from our near future?
 
There are a lot of reasons for these shortcomings. The problems that existed could be addressed but the absence of government in the last month made it impossible to address them. Do not forget that disbursing money to cover most of the debts to individuals is provided for, so this problem will not keep on. But this money was not disbursed due to the absence of government. On the other hand, what would happen if we were to break our relationship with Europe is something completely different and much worse. Then we would really miss from our funds not only what we already owe, but also what we would need from then on. It would be impossible to import drugs or fuel. Simply consider the recession that would occur and the new layoffs. And I am not talking about forcing Greece out of the euro, but the first step of such a "jam", where Greece would proceed to a unilateral repeal of the loan agreement, or even of the implementation laws, and where our lenders would stop their financing.
 
- Are things that bad? Could there even be a lack of food?
 
Of course, of drugs, food, fuel, spare parts, machinery and everything we import. As you know, we also import large quantities of foodstuffs. If the worst were to happen, sooner or later we would have found a solution for the basic supply to Greece, but this would lead to a worse negotiating position and a worse memorandum. The unilateral termination of the loan agreement is not a paper for blackmailing a better deal but a sure way to the complete subjugation of the country.
 
- SYRIZA says it wants the country’s stay in the EU. Do you think it is deceiving society, that it has a hidden agenda?
 

If we take word for word what their representatives have said from time to time, but also what its most recent program says now, it is certain it is leading the country out of the euro. Sometimes naivete is as dangerous as conscious expedience and leads to the same results. And we are not the only ones saying this. European officials are telling them as well, agreeing that the memorandum is the "wrong recipe" and must change, like the new Socialist finance minister of France Moscovici, who said that Greece's unilateral act leads out of the euro.
 
They are serving the drachma lobby
 
- Do you charge him with intention, impotence, or that he is not aware of the real situation of the country?
 
Does it matter? I see them saying the most unbelievable things. Recently, some of its members have said they will denounce the whole loan agreement. Others are speaking about the abolition of its implementation laws. They forget that every unilateral act causes complications and damage. Others directly express their intention to exit the euro, while others talk about staying in the euro. All this is certainly incompatible. Where does this total lead? Themselves to total chaos and the country over the cliff, were they to manage its fate.
 
- You say it is serving the «forces of the drachma» intentionally or out of ignorance?
 
I know that the drachma lobby gets served and nobody else. The drachma lobby are those who took their money abroad, and I am talking about large numbers, not small amounts, and want us out of the Eurozone in order to come back and with their euros buy everything for a penny. And others who want to plunder the wealth of the country, its State property, its wealth resources, everything. To become the future and omnipotent "oligarchs." All they want is to proceed with the unilateral termination of the loan agreement because they know where it will lead.
 
- You have characterised Tsipras as "naive and dangerous." Do you think he is unable to govern?
 
I think he is not able to see the consequences of what he says at times. Nor do I think he is seriously interested in governing. He behaves like a student party at the amphitheater, and not as a responsible party in the midst of an overwhelming crisis.
 
- Why do you think that SYRIZA is not ready to govern?
 
Because it is made ​​up of members that have at times supported terrorists. Because some members have defended Koufontinas as a "people’s fighter." Because they want us out of NATO. Over half of its members are publicly against Europe and the euro. Because they still talk about nationalizations when the rest of the world is trying to achieve privatizations. Because they are going back in time.
 
- Tsipras said recently you are also responsible for the tragedy of the country in the last 2 years. What is your answer?
 
He knows full well that this is a lie but has the logic of a permanently protesting party that constantly accuses all others to win for itself. He has just revealed that the program with which they took part in the May 6 elections is not valid. And when he showed another program it was not a political one, but full of wishful thinking. And there are people who are opposed to neoliberalism, as the symbol of the French May of 1968, Daniel Cohn-Bendit, who told Tsipras to "cut the nonsense." But he is not intimidated by such things as he is giving a show for his electoral audience. Part of this show is to blame everyone else as jointly responsible even though he knows that I disagreed at the time with the "wrong recipe". But now I am looking for a way for the country to avoid default while he only banks on despair and the crisis.
 
- Do you also believe that SYRIZA is mimicking the PASOK of 1981? Is history repeating itself?
 
It might be repeating itself as you say, but as a farce. May I remind you that there are four major differences with that era:
 
First, Andreas Papandreou was not Tsipras.

Secondly, Papandreou took over Greece with a ​​very small debt and had room to borrow and share. And he did. He tripled the debt as a percentage of the GDP. Now Greece is vastly indebted and on the verge of default.

Thirdly, there was no euro then. In order to bear the derailment by the PASOK government, Greece had three devaluations in four years. Today the country is in the euro and cannot have da evaluation. And if we were to exit the euro, it would be a nightmare.

Fourthly, Andreas was strictly controlled PASOK when he undertook to govern, unlike Tsipras who is trying to balance between 12 components and newcomers who joined from PASOK. These are neither controlled nor consolidated.
 
- You are speaking of renegotiation after the May 6 elections. Why did you not talk about it previously? Surely you did not emphasize it as much.
 
You must be kidding. I was talking about renegotiation constantly from July 2010 when we presented Zappeion I. In my last speech in TIF last September, I had a whole chapter on what and how I will renegotiate.

In the last seven months I have spoken not only about renegotiation, but also about the necessary changes that I will ask for. When you ask for changes, how exactly will you agree upon them with the others? With renegotiation. I sent out letters to our lenders warning them that I will ask to change some of what is contained in the agreement. And they accepted those letters and their content. I opened the door so that we could finally have a renegotiation.
 
- What exactly will you renegotiate?
 
I’ve said this many times. Practically 10 out of the 18 points I presented ten days ago:
 
Restoration of injustices to low-level pensioners, large families, special payrolls.

Extension of unemployment benefits to two years, unemployment benefits for the self-employed who closed down their business and are currently not covered.

This year’s tax obligations should not exceed 25% of incomes.

Immediate tax reduction for businesses and shops at 15%, immediate VAT reduction to 13% in banqueting, and later even lower.

Gradual reduction of the rest of the VAT rates to the levels of 2009 (with tourism at 5%).

Of course, there are immediate measures that do not require renegotiation, such as ensuring liquidity after the recapitalization of banks, eliminating bureaucracy for the absorption of EU funds that remain stagnant and bank installments not exceeding 30% of an income.
 
- Will you ask for further wage cuts in the private sector as provided in memorandum II, or will you stand against this measure?

We have said very clearly that there will be no more wage cuts, no more taxes. Indeed, we will ask to stop the decrease of wages in the private sector. We have a way to do this, and with the agreement of our social partners. On the other hand, the only thing that will save jobs, stop the wage cuts, create new jobs and engender wage increases, is growth. Instead, if the recession continues, wages and jobs will keep on decreasing whatever the government does. Hence, the focus of our policy is to have immediate recovery.
 
- Will you bring back the collective agreements?
 
For the time being we will stop the reduction of salaries and start the recovery. Mind you, if the engines of the economy do not start up, there will be nothing to save wages and jobs with. Wage moderation and immediate recovery are our priorities today.
 
- You said if SYRIZA implements its unilateral policies we will be thrown out of Europe. If the partners deny you the renegotiation, what will you do? Remain in the euro at all costs?
 
We will change the economic policy of unilateral austerity and endless recession in a Europe that is changing too. Europe has already accepted that there must be measures to bring growth, investments and jobs. It is clearly stated in the last communiqué by the EPP. And most of the other teams say the same.
 
- What is your goal for these elections?
 
To win so that we can form a government that will change the unilateral austerity without risking our stay in the euro.
 
- Does Bakoyiannis' presence as top candidate in the State ballot confirm ND’s turn towards the memorandum?
 
You must be joking again. There is no turn towards the memorandum. We are officially discussing changing this recession policy. It’s just that now everyone agrees that this must happen within the euro. I did not sign the memorandum recipe as you say. I signed the loan agreement (less debt, lower interest rates, repayment after 30 years), warning that I will ask for changes in the memorandum.
 
- Do your ideological attacks on SYRIZA mean that there will be no chances of post-election cooperation?
 
The attacks against SYRIZA are not just ideological but political as well. For example, when they ask to disarm the police in a society where there are thousands of thugs with guns in their hands, this is not merely an ideological difference. When you want to give "travel documents" to all illegal immigrants who wish to leave Greece, which will lead to our exit from Schengen, this is a political difference. Despite our differences, however, if after the elections they want to help create a government that will keep the country in the euro, we have no problem. But they will respect this context. It is up to them.
 
- You are focusing on SYRIZA. Have you changed your tactics against PASOK?
 
Firstly, PASOK has now moved over to the side of what we had been saying and they had thus far excluded. Today, the real danger comes from those who suggest unilateral acts of denunciation of the loan agreement because they are leading the country out of the euro. You must know that in politics you always focus on your main opponent each time. Not in the one you had yesterday or the day before or the one last year. Moreover, the members of PASOK who favored statism and populism have now moved to SYRIZA.
 
- Since there will be no clear majority and a continuation of non-governance will be fatal, if you are the top party who will you work with? PASOK? The Independent Greeks? The Democratic Left?
 
With whoever accepts these terms I mentioned: to change the recipe for endless austerity with growth measures and not jeopardize our stay in the Eurozone.
 
- Did the call for unity bear any fruit? Will it reduce the Independent Greeks’ strength?
 
Of course it bore fruit. Apart from that, it is up to the electoral body to speak through its voting.
 
- Venizelos is already talking about an ecumenical government. Would you take part in one?
 
I have already told you. We want a strong and stable government to change the recipe and remain in the euro. We will discuss any cooperation that will yield such a result.
 
- Do you see a clash between Germany and the USA for dominance in the EU?
 
I do not see a clash for dominance but there are undoubtedly serious differences of opinion.
  
The answer by the SYRIZA president is that there is no risk in the attempt to replace the memorandum with a growth plan and the renegotiation of the loan agreement.
 
"The scope of negotiation is wide open for a government with a fresh popular mandate to cancel the memorandum," Alexis Tsipras points in an exclusive interview in "THEMA."
 
- KKE says it will not govern with SYRIZA and the Democratic Left does not have a clear position. Who will you govern with? Are you aiming for political autonomy?
 
It is expected before the elections that the remaining forces of the Left will try to rally their electoral base. But after the elections, and if the result is a victory of the Left and a defeat for the forces of the memorandum, there will be new correlations. We are confident that the vast social majority and the base of the Left parties will show the alternative way for the Left.
 
- Would you take part in a national unity government with PASOK and ND?
 
SYRIZA has called for the citizens’ confidence according to a specific program. The program includes: first, the replacement of the memorandum by a national recovery plan for economic and social development, productive reconstruction and fair fiscal consolidation, secondly, the renegotiation of the loan agreement, and thirdly, implementing a plan of radical reform in the political system that will put an end to the interweaving of political and economic power. We would participate in a government only on this programmatic basis. And such a government can only come by a cooperation of the parties of the Left.
 
- Are you not worried that today’s Left-Right polarization might lead to divisive phenomena tomorrow? Can the Left address the problems and lead the country out of the dead end without the Right?
 
The polarization is now between society and the memorandum. Greece should show persistence and determination to rid itself of the memorandum in contrast to Samaras, who conveys divisive messages taken from the '50s. He tries to bring out of the closet of history the dividing lines to make us forget about the memorandum. But he will not succeed. Our people will forge a new unity and overtake them.
 
- You have pledged to support the weakest. From what income level and above will one be considered rich and pay more? Will you retain the limit of 20,000 euros as your members say?
 
There has been tremendous effort to terrify the people concerning tax issues. It is sad to see ND members shouting "here comes SYRIZA to get your deposits, here comes SYRIZA to get your fortunes." After decades of bipartisan rule, Greece has failed to have a transparent, efficient and fair taxation system. Fortunately the vast majority of the people understand that such a system will not only increase revenues, but will also be a great relief for low pensioners and low income earners who are currently lifting the heavier weights.
 
- Foreigners say the elimination of the memorandum equals stopping Greece’s funding. How will you proceed if the lenders are not bluffing?
 
We have heard foreigners say just the opposite as well. As regards to the situations you refer to, they are an attempt to support the political parties of the memorandum. The only way now for Greece is to negotiate after two years of a disastrous and failed policy. Nobody wants default and Greece out of the Eurozone, especially when Spain is "on fire." Instead, what ensures the suspension of funding, default and exiting the euro is the implementation of the already failed program of the second memorandum and the PSI.
 
- Are you prepared to exit the euro and take on governing the country with a return to the drachma?
 
There is no option of exiting the euro. Nobody wants this. It will have a huge impact on the entire European economy. For example, this whole current feverish debate about rescuing Spain and the expansion of the crisis to Italy would have to be placed on a new basis, with harsher and more crucial terms. The constant choice of SYRIZA is negotiation, with the country staying in the euro.
 
- Lately you have been accused of constantly changing the program you will follow if you become government. Is it an example of realism? Are you not afraid of vindicating those who say they cannot trust you?
 
We have not changed our position. We specified our programmatic axes. Those who are sinking into a huge crisis of unreliability are the parties of the memorandum. PASOK has practically withdrawn itself from the political stage after the elections on May 6, and as we are reaching the polls ND is losing the sense of measur, seriousness and political dignity. On one hand it is announcing 150,000 new jobs when the memorandum it wants to implement speaks of 150,000 layoffs and a 6% decline, and on the other shows TV spots with kids and lowers the Greek flag from the mast. This is the misery of people who feel no guilt and responsibility for the children of our country, who go to school without food, and for our national sovereignty which is being eliminated because of their commitments.
 
- Are you aware of ​​the course of fiscal stability, or will you reach the decision to take back your promises, arguing that ND and PASOK left behind empty funds and scorched earth?
 
"Scorched earth" is not a joke as there are many indications of it. The case of the EOPYY pharmacies is a prime example and I suppose you saw the unthinkable and outrageous attempt by the main person responsible , Loverdos, not only to avoid his grave responsibilities, but also to load them on SYRIZA. But to answer the question directly, the scorched earth is mainly the result of the memorandum. Its termination will allow us to stabilize the situation, immediately alleviate the suffering of those who are hit the hardest and create positive conditions for exiting the crisis.
 
- Mario Monti argues that the euro is worth more than national interests and illusions. Isn’t it selfish to announce the elimination of the memorandum? Are you trapped in the rhetoric of elimination?
 
I think we missing the picture of the actual situation here. The people are suffering. They are taxed on income that they don’t have, they receive cuts in extremely low salaries and pensions, pass on to unemployment massively, fail to meet basic needs, the sick are deprived of their drugs and maltreated - not to mention the suicides. Does it seem like national egoism and selfishness to you for Greece to ask to emerge from this nightmare?
 
- Europeans link the common currency with a policy of obedience. How will you implement your policies for benefits and strengthening the State?
 
We promised the obvious: to confront the crisis by entering a path of development. To do this we need to support the weak, stimulate demand and have a productively reformed public sector, as in all developed countries. The control and reallocation of public spending, the reform of the tax system and the property chart that the bipartisanship had avoided for decades are measures that will allow us to use resources to put the economy on the path away from recession.
 
- What is your answer to Antonis Samaras’ criticism that you are the chosen one of the drachma lobby?
 
The drachma lobby has invested in the implementation of the memorandum to the point of default, not the victory of the Left. Bankers and TV station owners are fully in favor of the memorandum, as well as the major shareholders of SAs who took their tax-free profits to Switzerland from the very first moments. And besides those, there are Samaras' programmatic pronouncements about complete surrender to the powerful economic interests. SYRIZA has only one ally, the Greek society. And our goal is not the drachma, but to end the memorandum.
 
- The accusation you unleashed in "Time" against Samaras and Venizelos caused a sensation. Do you really believe that in order to convince ND and PASOK to support the memoranda, Merkel made use of the lists with the politicians that were paid by the black funds of the German company?
 
Do you think it’s strange? The Germans have information that could blow up the whole traditional political establishment. Tsoukatos said he carried the bag with the money to the PASOK offices and no one bothered him. In a minimally developed country, PASOK would have taken him to court. Top members of the Right and their environment are recorded dozens of times in Christoforakos’ black book, who was allowed to leave untouched by the ND government. Aren’t these things enough to establish honest relationships between these scoundrels?
 
- Do you agree with Yiannis Balafas that we must lower our defence spending and take a risk with Turkey?
 
Balafas did not say that. He said that cutting defense spending will be risking the displeasure of the French and German war industry lobby. And he was right. You have been informed by a video that has been carefully edited. We will not risk anything with Turkey. We will insist on settling the disputes on the basis of dialogue and mutual reduction of armaments. And that suits both sides.
 
- In recent weeks, many members of SYRIZA express personal opinions that deviate from the official line. If you become government, how will you deal with the problem of pluralism?
 
I have not seen any differences from the official line of SYRIZA. I have seen a desperate attempt to detect differences in the most extortionate way, even in verbal formulations as well. And in any case, ND has much more powerful variations, since the State ballot will be headed by the most fanatical memorandum politician, which was in fact expelled by Samaras when he was telling us that he will not agree with a mistake. I refer of course to Bakoyannis, who would have invented the memorandum had it not already been there.
 
- Are you planning on eliminating the riot squads and disarm police? What is your plan on minimizing criminality?
 
Tackling crime is a matter of integrated policy and planning. The security issue must be addressed in practice. If police focuses on its plan to consolidate a climate of security everywhere, it can succeed. As for the issue of disarmament, we believe that officers do not need to be armed when guarding marches. This is as unreasonable. as the use of chemicals that are banned by international treaties. We also do not need to have gigantic units with the exclusive special mission of beating up people. In a democratic system the work of police is to apply the law, ensure order and build a sense of security. Nothing more and nothing less.
 
- You have been subject criticism for showing sensitivity to the ill-treatment of immigrants and turning a blind eye when it comes to foreign attacks against Greeks.
 
The only thing they could charge us with is that we are categorically opposed to racism and xenophobia. This is something completely different from criminality and lack of security. Not all immigrants are criminals and not all criminals are immigrants. There is a problem of safety which is getting worse due to the crisis.
 
- Does your program still contain the proposal for the reunification of immigrant families? Do you agree to their relatives coming to Greece too?
 
I should note here that the immigration issue is complex and must not receive simplistic answers. First, there must be a particular policy of legitimization. If someone has been in Greece for years and is working here, they must have proper papers and legal residence status. To be able to bring his wife and children here under such circumstances is not so absurd. The Greeks of the Diaspora earned this right. Despite the fact that it received harsh criticism, the legalization of immigrants in the late '90s solved many problems. What we need to address is the criminal networks linked to trafficking, forced prostitution and drugs, and the status of people trapped in Greece while wanting to reach Central Europe, who constitute the vast majority of immigrants without papers.
 
- It turned out that the notion that Greece could be supplied with cheap oil from Venezuela was wrong. Could you make another wrong assessment of some other issues?
 
The mistake was made by those who have trapped the country in a one-dimensional foreign policy and are not developing interstate relations with countries that are willing to cooperate and help. Venezuela is the top oil producer of OPEC. They have signed intergovernmental agreements with a number of countries, even in Europe, and provide them with oil. Our country is threatened with a blockade by Iran to the EU countries if the clouds of war continue to gather in the area. I do not understand why we should not look for beneficial agreements on oil supplies and trade with Venezuela?
 
- How will you nationalize banks if by the elimination of the memorandum the lending by the European mechanism stops? Where will you find 50 bil. euros for their recapitalization?

The recapitalization money is not just being given to us. We are borrowing it. Spain also asked to borrow to recapitalize its banks and no one considered it an unfair and unreasonable requirement. Of course such a thing requires a change in policy to avoid the same problems recurring every so often. But it's hard to imagine that Europe would prefer risking a total crisis in its banking system to helping the banks of the countries in need of recapitalization. Moreover, if the State buys common stock, it should have the right to vote. This is not something particularly communist; even the U.S. government exercises control over the banks that have been recapitalized.
 
- Why do you believe that the other Eurozone countries will consent to our eliminating the memorandum but continuing to receive the loan agreement money?
 
Because the memorandum leads us to default and the taxpayers of other Eurozone countries will lose their money. Because the money of the loan agreement is being returned to our lenders at a huge rate. And because our renegotiating basis is the only realistic solution to the crisis.
 
- If the risk of denouncement does not play out, how will you keep to your promises?
 
There is no risk. We will negotiate and are fully prepared for it. This question should be addressed to ND, which drafts its program based on the good will of the Troika.
 
- Do you believe that after the elections the bullying incidents such as that of Kasidiaris might multiply?
 
I think this horrible event convinced many people, who thought that voting for fascist gangs is a reaction to the political establishment, to reconsider. These people with tattoos and swastikas have no place either in the political scene or in Greek society.
 
- Do you agree with Yiannis Boutaris that Golden Dawn should be placed outside the law?
 
This is a matter for justice. The information we hold in our hands shows that this is not a political party but a criminal organization.